A comment from MARC yesterday leaves the impression that he thinks that women in ministry will cause a problem in Norway. The truth is that the majority of the Norwegian people are in favour of full equality between men and women in all functions even in the church.
In the last days the Lord is pouring out his Spirit upon all people, causing men and women alike to prophesy. There seems to be no limitations in any way for anybody when it comes to serving and ministering to people and their needs.
The controversy over the role of women has not so much to do with ministry as with government and headship. According to the Bible God has made the husband the head in the family and he has made male elders the leaders in the church (1.Corinthians 11-14; 1.Timothy 2;) and he does not allow women to exercise authority over men. If some of the Ephesian 4,11 ministries carry government with them they must be restricted to some chosen men only.
Women in ministry
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9 responses to “Women in ministry”
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Hi Erling,
It was actually an open question. I assume Norway is not so much different from the rest of the Western world.
The distinction you make between minstry and aspects of government is a complicated one, for several reasons:
1. As Christians we are priests and kings with Christ, so whenever we function our spiritual mandate/authority, we also exercise some form of government.
2. Likewise, and especially in a church leadership context, all five ministries include aspects of government. Are women allowed to preach/teach for instance in evangelical churches in Norway? Often women are allowed to preach, plant churches and provide leadership on the mission field, but not back home. What exactly is government and what is not?
3. Your argument is being used by many churches to keep women out of any ministry involving teaching or senior church leadership (teams of elders).
One of the pastors in Bergen told me that women prophets were OK, but women apostles would not be received by the city elders.
It is not my intention to start an argument here, it’s more an observation, and I was curious to hear to what extent women are really allowed to minister in churches in Norway. Your argument is OK with me personally, but can be interpreted and applied in a very narrow sense and very broad. Where would you draw the line yourself? And what does it mean in practice when church leaders in Norway say they want to release women in their God-given ministry? I’m really curious to know. -
Hi Marc!
Thank you for your comments and provoking questions!
I totally agree with you that the distinction between ministry and government is sometimes complicated. However I think it is a very valid distinction in the Bible. I will try to explain shortly:
1. It is right that as Christians we are priests and kings with Christ, so whenever we function our in spiritual gift or ministry, we also exercise some form of authority, – men and women alike.
2. It is also right that all five ministries exercise varying degrees of authority. In what sense they are governmental or not, there may be some disagreement. You are posing a good question: What exactly is government and what is not? That is a key question. We normally define government as the ability or position of making decisive decision in any matter, the right to rule in a defined area, or final authority. Therefore women are allowed to preach/teach in nearly all evangelical churches in Norway. But the final doctrinal responsibility, that is making decision on what is the doctrine of a particular church, lay with the government of the church. It is like the Psalm is saying: The Lord gave the Word, and there was a large company of women making it known!
3. It is also right that a narrow understanding of my argument can be used to keep women out of any ministry but that is clearly not a Biblical use of a Biblical argument!
4. In our apostolic network the churches are built on the foundation of apostles and prophets (Eph.2:20). The local churches are led by a company of elders (men only) ordained by the apostles, to supervise, care for, teach, lead and manage the household of God. They are the spiritual fathers of the house. Then we have a broader leadership group consisting of men and women with varying responsibilities in the church. In the services men and women function on equal terms, – they must be in the Spirit and minister in a fresh anointing, for the edification of the church. Normally more women take actively part in functioning in the gifts of the Spirit and in bringing contributions of many kinds. Both men and women can be cell-group leaders and supervisors of a group of cell-groups and their leaders, since they are seen as deacons and the final authority lays with the elders and not with the deacons.
5. We want to see both men and women released into their full potential in God. We work to enable all believers to minister according to their gifts and callings (Eph.4:12). As far as we understand the Scripture, men and women may minister alongside each other on equal terms in any capacity given by God, but the final government of the church rests with a few chosen men only. This restriction is a very small one and most of the men are under the same little restriction!
6. This understanding rests on the desire to be true to the Word of God and the created order of God. Headship and submission are seen in the Godhead itself, and God wants it to be expressed in his church. The Father is the head of Christ. Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of the woman (1.Cor.11:2-16). The husband is the head of his wife (Eph.5:21-33). Women are not allowed to teach men or have authority over them (1.Tim.2:11-15). Women should not speak in the church during the process of judging prophetic words (1.Cor.14:29-39). These Scriptural statements are so clear that we can not ignore them if we want to be faithful to the Bible. In fact I believe the teaching of these Scriptures are very important and will enable men and women to function well together for the glory of God in his church.
Hopefully I have made my position clear! Your comments and insights are most welcome! -
Dear Erling,
Thanks for clarifying. This is the traditional Evangelical practice that I’ve seen in most churches so far. But still I see a gap in your argumentation: you interpret ‘government’ as ‘carrying final responsibility in deciding what is doctrine for a particular church’, but then move on to saying that as a result of this women are not allowed to function in teams of elders and city-wide apostolic teams. This raises two specific questions:
1. If the interpretation government = setting doctrine is valid, then why are many women on the mission field in fact preaching the gospel, starting churches and teaching new Christians (and thus introducing and applying doctrine)? God is blessing their work, so He doesn’t seem to have a real big problem with it. You may say I’m a bit pragmatic here. That’s true. But I see that the Holy Spirit is also pragmatic in this respect.
2. Assuming that your interpretation is correct, then why draw the conclusion that women cannot or should not function in teams of elders and/or city-wide leadership teams? Most of the elders’ daily work is ministry has nothing to do with making doctrine. And if there is a doctrinal dispute or unclarity, this could be dealt with by a few wise men, right? And if I observe church history, most if not all church splits were the result of men fighting with each other on doctrinal issues. It is not very likely for women to do this, they tend to solve issues in a more relational way. So I assume that even if we would let women handle doctrinal stuff, they wouldn’t blow it much as we men did.
Let’s see if you can crack these arguments. 😉
Marc -
Hi Marc!
I like this discussion with you! I will try to crack your last arguments! But first of all I must say that I don’t understand the gap you see in my argumentation. I can’t see that I am doing what you are saying: “you interpret ‘government’ as ‘carrying final responsibility in deciding what is doctrine for a particular church’, but then move on to saying that as a result of this women are not allowed to function in teams of elders and city-wide apostolic teams.”
I would appreciate if you could clarify this before I try to crack your last arguments! Thank you!
Erling -
Not sure if I can clarify it even more. I’m just referring to what you stated, that in your church network teams of elders are men-only. The main reason for this is that, as you say, women should not make doctrine. I’m just questioning this connection, see points 1 and 2.
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Hi Marc!
I think there must be a misunderstanding here. In our network only men can be elders because of what the Bible says about headship and government. Not because woman should not make doctrine. In the local church the elders are responsible to watch over the apostolic doctrine, but I used this just to give one example of their governmental role. A woman or man may teach and preach on equal terms in the church as long as they stay with the apostolic doctrine. I can’t see that I am making the connection the way you say I do.
To me the key is to differentiate between headship/government on one side and ministry functions on the other hand. According to our understanding of the Bible, headship is male, but ministry is open for all to take part in, according to their gift and anointing. In the family the father is the head but he exercises his government in close co-operation with his wife and sometimes through her. They are partners together in raising children. If they have a disagreement, it is the responsibility of the husband, as the head of the house to bring a final decision. In making that decision he must not be egoistic but lay down his life for his family as Christ laid down his life for us. Since the father is the head of the house he is responsible and will be hold accountable for everything that goes on in the house. Likewise in the church as the family of God, we who are mature are all partners in looking after and helping the new converts and the immature to grow in the Lord. But the final responsibility and authority in the church rest with the elders. If the elders don’t listen to the experts in different areas they are stupid and must answer for the consequences themselves.
Therefore your point 1 and 2 rest on a false assumption and are already cracked!
With us women, preach, teach, baptise, administer the Lord’s Supper, lead worship, lead groups of group-leaders, lead different kind of groups, function in all the gifts of the Spirit – you name it. In fact they do the same things as the men do, except being elders because of the teaching of the Bible on headship and government in the family and in the church.
I fully agree with you that a woman should be able to function the same way in her home country as she is allowed to do on the missionary field. We are not allowed to operate two different standards, one for the West and another one for the rest!
I fully agree with you that the men have messed things up in a terrible way many times. But that is no excuse for not taking the Biblical teaching on headship in family and church serious.
Well, Marc, I don’t know how you will take this answer, but I would like you to try to understand our burden to be true to the Word of God without being legalistic. We certainly don’t want women to be suppressed! If you came to see I think you would be surprised to find the women content and functioning well in our network of related churches, – and also in most of the churches that hold the same position as we do. In the end it boils down to the authority of the Bible, that is the authority of the author of the Bible, – the Triune God himself!
I am looking forward for your next comment!
Your friend Erling -
Ah, you cracked my points easily. And it’s now clear what you mean, somehow it hadn’t yet fully dawned on me. We’re on the same page when it comes to the biblical basis, but for the sake of argument I tend to stretch the borders a bit (bad Dutch trait ;-).
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Hi Marc! I have enjoyed this “chat” with you! Thank you for visiting and commenting! It is good to know that we are on the same page when it comes to the Biblical basis. We need insight and wisdom to put the word of God into practice in ways birthed by the Spirit fully in line with the word of God regardless of religious traditions or new philosophy!
God is good!
Erling -
bonjour,
je suis un marocain ,j’ai 21 ans ,je suis un etudant en université des
sciences juridiques et economique de
Meknes.
je suis trés passionné par l’histoire de votre pays “votre ancienne
habitons, leur methode de vivre dans les
periodes de la paix et de la gerre ,les manieres dont ils expriment leur
joie et leur colére”.
dernierement j’ai lu un livre de Georges BAYARD il s’appelle “MOI
ERIC LE ROUGE”, Vraiment j’ai aimé ce livre
parcequ’il raconte d’une maniere exraordinaire la vie de viking.
j’ai l’honneur de vous demander de bien vouloir me faire parvenir
des documentation sur l’histoir de votre
pays .
dans l’attente d’une reponse favorable veuillez accepter monsieur l’expression
de ma haute gratitude.
mon adresse est :
nom : hatmi
prenom: Mohammed amine
adresse :boulevard amboise essaada N°15
ville : Meknes
pays: Morocco.
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